forlorn (iodine) wrote in thecoffeehouse, @ 2003-07-08 20:32:00

Current mood:

contemplative

feminism.
How does everybody feel about feminism? as a woman, my opinions may be controversial, but here it goes. I agree with the basic premises of feminism, but I disagree with how it is carried out. I think that sometimes feminists take things too far, in attempting to preserve equal rights for both men and women, they are essentially taking rights away from men to give to women which displeases the original point of feminism. The "woman's movement" started in the late 18th century and gained ground in the 1840s bringing women together in comradery from all walks of life. They attempted and eventually succeeding in such things as women's sufferage and gained ground in getting rid of female persecution in certain aspects whichs is undoubtedly a good thing. Obviously, in some less technologically and socially advanced countries, that is still an issue in that women are forced to hide their physical appearance, made to be accompanied by a man at all times, and sometimes even coerced to succumb to genital mutilation, and this is certainly not a good thing. My point is however, if we are attempting to strive for "equal rights," becoming reverse-sexist is not an option. Down-grading men with such statements as "men are pigs" is just as bad as being male-chauvanist, the only difference is that it is socially acceptable for a women to be sexist against a man, but it is not acceptable for a male to be sexist against a female. So if you want equal rights, that's great, go for it! But make sure it's really equal rights you're going for, and not a hypocritical form of reverse-sexism. What I think people fail to understand is that men and women are different, physically, mentally and emotionally. It makes neither gender better or worse than the other, it's just the proven differences that we have. We can't deny that there is a difference between the sexes, so I believe that we should accept and bask in these differences.

newzerokanada 2003-07-08 21:08 (link)

I don't understand what you mean by some taking rights away from men. Do you mean literally? I do know that some do downgrade men, which isn't very effective, but I don't see many men losing their rights in society. I think most rational feminist want to have the same opportunities as men. I do realize that men and women are different, but I believe that can change. I think women are just as capable of being emotionally and mentally equivalent to the male mindset. And vice-versa. This would be a very good topic to discuss in the Feminism community. Would it be okay if I carried this conversation over to the feminist community? I'm interested to hear what they have to say over there and I think it would answer your question better than this community (no offense to anyone!). Interesting topic, though! (Reply to this) (Thread)

iodine 2003-07-08 21:16 (link)

No, I don't mean literally taking rights away from men, I mean downgrading men in favor of women. I don't believe all men are jaded and male chauvanist, all though I know that there are many who are. Thanks for your insite. You are more than welcome to carry it over to the feminist community! Oh, and just for the record. I'm with you on the debate in the CC community. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

newzerokanada 2003-07-08 21:28 (link)

Great! I won't reveal your username so only those in this community will know who said it...since I'm not sure if you care about personal space. You can view it here & we'll see if anyone has anything to say. :) As for CC, I'm a bit steamed that some people must be rude when it comes to the community. I really love that community & there is absolutely no reason for hostility. Ahhh...well, I guess that's life. ;) I just don't want to see that community disintegrate. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

I almost agree with you cky 2003-07-08 21:29 (link)

But, the devil's in the details, and I consider it important to maintain a distinction between gender and sex; the latter is inherent in one's physical makeup, and one is (more or less) stuck with it for life, for better or worse. I'd like to think that one can pick the gender one wants, though; in theory, if everybody chooses to straddle the fence, we end up with gender equality. I do appreciate the unique aspects of both sexes—I'm bisexual after all—but personally I have little tolerance for some aspects of masculine socialisation (to pick an example close to home). These aspects are not things that I should ‘accept and bask in’. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: I almost agree with you iodine 2003-07-09 09:44 (link)
	Thanks for the feedback! I too like the "unique aspexts of both sexes" and agree about having "little tolerance for some aspects of masculine socialisation," but I don't like some aspects of feminine socialisation either. No human is perfect I suppose. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

bridgettep 2003-07-08 21:42 (link)

This post may sound a bit like an biography of me but I am a woman and you asked a question pertaining to women so here goes: I will be flat out honest. I do not think I honestly know what feminism is. I graduated with a minor in Women's Studies and I will admit I know very little about feminist issues but, alas, there is a good reason. The Women's Studies program at my alma matter is minimal at best. The one woman who kept it going (we can call her Dr. Crazy) is a hard core feminist who believes that her views define feminism. This is what I did not agree with. She said all feminists must be pro-choice. And she took this a step further by saying most feminist are pro-abortion. Meaning that women should not use birth control because it messes with their bodies and that abortion is perfectly fine to be used as a method of birth control. This is am against. I am pro-life. She also does not believe in God. She says the Bible is anti-feminist. She said that all feminists at least doubt the existance of God and have a tendency to deny all aspects of the Bible. I am also against this. I believe in God. Dr. Crazy also said that feminists throw off all of societies stereotypes given to women, such as shaving legs/under arms, crossing legs, carrying a purse, cooking, anything pleasing to a man, etc. I enjoy some of these things. So, I don't think I can answer your question because I have been given a tainted definition of feminism. I believe women can acheive what they set out to. I also believe men are better at some things. But this also applies to women. Women can do things men cannot. I also don't think it is right to stereotype. This is why I refuse to say I hate the feminist movement because of Dr. Crazy. Thanks for listening (well, reading.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: iodine 2003-07-09 09:41 (link)

"So, I don't think I can answer your question because I have been given a tainted definition of feminism. I believe women can acheive what they set out to. I also believe men are better at some things. But this also applies to women. Women can do things men cannot." I agree with you there, you brought up some interesting things. I suppose I too have been given a tainted definition of the feminist movement, because most of what I've learned about it reflects what you said above about what Dr. Crazy taught you. I think that we should just ignore the lables and think for ourselves, do what pleases us whether it pleases a man or anyone else or not. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: bridgettep 2003-07-09 10:25 (link)
	I think you are right. I think feminism is more of an inner state of mind rather than something that can be labeled as a solid concrete idea. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

beforemytime 2003-07-11 02:26 (link)

Well as Atheist/Pro Choice type feminist, I disagree with your Professor. Feminism is a belief in women's rights. yes, but it is opened to different ideas. She said all feminists must be pro-choice. And she took this a step further by saying most feminist are pro-abortion. Meaning that women should not use birth control because it messes with their bodies and that abortion is perfectly fine to be used as a method of birth control. This is am against. I am pro-life. While I am pro-choice, the idea of abortion as birth control is morally offensive to me. There are pro-life feminist, groups on the web. She also does not believe in God. She says the Bible is anti-feminist. She said that all feminists at least doubt the existance of God and have a tendency to deny all aspects of the Bible. I am also against this. I believe in God. While I find much of the Bible distressing, many women can combine both religion and feminism. I can't, but more power to you if you can. And while I will argue to the death about the importance of freethought and feminism, you can argue to the death against me. Dr. Crazy also said that feminists throw off all of societies stereotypes given to women, such as shaving legs/under arms, crossing legs, carrying a purse, cooking, anything pleasing to a man, etc. I enjoy some of these things As do I. Hell I wear short skirts, high heels, I'm big on 1950's style, and I have a makeup collection Tammy Faye would kill for. Just be yourself. And do what makes you feel good. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)